Synopsis

Pierre leads the Noetic Society Parmenides study group through another morning of study. Lately we've been taking a break from the Parmenides, going through Proclus' Theology of Plato(*) instead, in order to see how Proclus lays out the 14 orders of gods implied in the Parmenides.

Today we focus on the first paragraph of chapter 7 of book 2 of Proclus' Theology of Plato (*).

[I did not attend this meeting, and today's diagram is not from Pierre.  It is only from myself as I listened to Barbara's tape later and read this paragraph and tried to work out the hierarchy that Proclus is proposing. He describes this hierarchy (or parts of it, or maybe even two different hierarchies!) twice in today's paragraph 1. It is unclear to me, as I could not completely map the first h. onto the second h..  So on the left is his first description, and on the right is his second, and the diagram represents my questions to myself about how (if at all) the first may be mapped onto the second. -JS]

Attendees

Pierre, Barbara, Regina, JulieH, Eldar

Highlights

• What's it like to get into this stuff?
• It's a way of thinking.
• In this chapter, what is he imagining? He's giving us his vision of everything, and the order that it has, all of which proceeds by analogy. So you have to set it up as levels for analogy
• Certain phrases will wake you up. But you have to bring it together.
• What kind of realm is he describing?
• JulieH's model of The Good (from her reading):
  • I call "The Offspring of the Good", which is generated by "The Good", analogous to itself, in whatever proportion The Self is in relation to the Intellect and the objects of Intellect in the Intelligible World..
    just as..
    The Sun is to Sight and the Objects-of-Sight in the Visible World.
• Discussion of SteveD's and ToddC's comments on Facebook
• 0:09:35 -- They [I think he is referring here to either Plato or the later Neoplatonists or both] don't deal with the implications of Solid Geometry (in The Republic). He would never put it forward forceably, and instead uses the idea of The One and The Good.
• There is a level to his (Plato's) thought that he is not sharing.
• "Excuse me" (we could say to him), "Are you not making a distinction between The One and The Good?" ("Yes.") Then they have a duality, not an ultimate principle. But Plato knows that. And the neoplatonists are looking back at him almost 1000yrs later.
• Not a hidden teaching. It is all conversational.
• Proclus is also talking about the phenomenology of Light
• An architecture. Different levels, points.
• Are you making polytheism intelligible?
• You don't have to believe in the Greek gods. But it is a way of thinking.
• 0:15:30 -- Barbara: Like/unlike, motion/rest have a hierarchy that is like (or related to) the 9 hypotheses.
• 0:16:35 -- They start reading Chapter 7. "The science of theology.." -- Pierre reads until 0:23:25.
• Discussion
• "The summits of the wholes" (better translation)
• Sensibles in the class of "Beings"? Huh?
• "..the science of the knowledge of beings" might be better translated, "he defines knowledge by the gnosis of the intelligibles."
• A monad (source) for the Brilliant Light of Being!
• What is meant by "suspends"?
• An architecture of "boxes"
• Eldar enters, and brief discussion of meeting times.
• 1:00:00 -- "For as the monad of mundane powers is supermundane..."
• This is where he departs from platonism into neo-platonism. [What does PG mean here by, "departs"? Depart in the sense of, "disagree"? Or only in the sense of "extend"?
• The primary issue: What are (Proclus') monads? What powers do they have? How do they function? How does that fit into the idea of the ultimate term, and the realm of the Intelligibles (i.e., "Pure Being", in platonist terms)?
• He has to try to show a higher intelligibility (that comes) with the introduction of "monads".
• What must the monads have in order to function in the way they're described? (Several guesses and qutoes from text: Light, unifying power, source of brilliant-light-of-being, perfecting, union, cause, generation, ruling. What about Logos?)
• The Metaphysical Battle here: Whether you need the monads.
• Would he have to put logos in all those places?
• How is a monad different than The Logos?
• Multiplying levels (distinguishing) levels of reality so you can understand certain things.
• "Truth" above those? (In Symposium, truth is the nature of Reality)
• the power, therefore, of words.
• JH: Logos to Sun analogy again. Now 4 terms:
  • [PHYSICAL]: Eye - Seeing - The Visible - Sun (source of visibility)
    as
    [METAPHYS]: (Eye of) Soul - Intellecting - The Intelligible - Self
• But for them, this last half of the analogy (the metaphysical) is one. It has a unity. Simultaneous phenomena (as it were), turning upon itself continuously. [PG is referring to the 2nd hypothesis / brilliant-light-of-being / "The One That Is", etc.]
• PG to JH: What does that do for you (to consider/reflect-on this analogy)?
• And where do the differences between these 2 levels make a difference
• JH: How do I see something?
• PG: What would you put into the class of "Intelligibles" as you are reading this paragraph?
• The Intellect is needed to understand the Intelligibles.
• Justification is necessary
• With this understanding, you'll be able to put in all of the gods in a hierarchy of excellence.
• Reasoning and Understanding of the Intelligibles: Therefore the Intellect must exist.
• The "Homerids"
• JH (completes the fourth terms in above analogy: "Self to Sun")
• Tripartite Soul (for Plato). Highest of the 3: Reasoning
• Making distinctions: A kind of "Geography of Space". But really talking about The Self.
• Regina sees structure to what Proclus is doing. PG: What does it do to you (to see that)?
• Charm: Once again: Why does Plato not write about The Self, but instead settles for instead (only) talking about The One and The Good?
• Final cool-down and chit-chat

More Info

• (*) Proclus' Theology of Plato (Thomas Taylor translation): Volume Eight in the Thomas Taylor series, ISBN-10: 978-1898910-077, as published by Prometheus Trust and available in the UK through them directly, or in the USA through Opening Mind Associates.
• The NS Parmenides Study Group
• Plato's Parmenides: The Juan and Maria Balboa Translation
• Pierre Grimes and Philosophical Midwifery
• The Noetic Society
• The Pierre Grimes and the Noetic Society collection here on archive.org.

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